Ildefonso Vergara: «There is no medium that offers so much to the flamenco like the radio»

He says that "being able to access thanks to the radio to flamenco "Live, that was a gem that only someone who lived through that time can tell you. And that's how I tell it, because it truly was an extraordinary phenomenon." Ildefonso Vergara (Paterna, Huelva, 1964) is the commercial director of Radio Sevilla. He is not a typical announcer, then. But the fondness for it jondo This has led her to always be very close to the microphone, to flamenco radio, which has definitely existed, and to the research of this social phenomenon. Of this joint path that flamenco music and the airwaves have walked. She tells it in the book One hundred years of flamenco and radio (University of Seville Publishing House). And he talks to us about it during a lively chat in a café in Altozano, Triana.

 

– A book about flamenco and radio. And coinciding with the centenary of the life of Spanish radio. Sounds good, my lord.

– I have also been lucky enough to have presented it at the radio centenary congress in Barcelona. Radio turned one hundred years old on November 14th. From 1924 to 2024. And on the Day of the Flamenco It's November 16th. Well, that day the book was presented One hundred years of flamenco and radio within the congress.

– What exactly happened on November 14, 1924?

– The anniversary of radio is actually celebrated by chance: the coincidence of the first administrative regulation in Spain authorising the licence of a radio station officially by the State, which was Radio Barcelona. That does not mean that it was the first station to broadcast, but that it was the first to have the administrative licence. In fact, without going any further, here in Seville, Radio Club Sevillano, which is the germ of Radio Sevilla, was already operating in June 1924. Or Radio Ibérica, in Madrid, was also broadcasting before. But that date is the one marked by EAJ-1, which was the name given to stations in Spain to make themselves known.

– You’ve been mulling over the idea of ​​this book for years, haven’t you?

– Everything comes from the PhD program at the University of Seville. It has been one of the most interesting challenges I have ever undertaken in my life from an intellectual point of view, which is to submit to academic discipline in every sense, to excellence. I defended a doctoral thesis in 2015, and that was the seed. The book was written nine or ten years later, and I did it by researching all over Spain. Why radio? I originally planned to do a piece on the Huelva fandango, on the 1923 contest. In fact, I did some pretty interesting research at the time. But it's true that being a radio man and living from within, I had the opportunity to do something that had never been investigated and there was no reference to it.

– We understand that you had more documentation on such a subject at your fingertips than any mortal, right?

– It is normal to think that, but in reality it is not like that. In radio there are no newspaper archives, there are no record archives that allow you to have all those files. And there is also no documentation on what programming the radio had eighty, fifty or even twenty years ago. It has taken a lot of work. What is more, I have achieved it thanks to the contribution of fans, collectors, researchers, people who have been able to save and maintain those files in their private archives, so to speak.

– Remind us of your steps in radio. That way we will understand who dares to publish more than a thousand pages of content. jondo-radiophonic.

– I have been in this since I was twenty years old. I have been working in radio for almost forty years. Before that, even when I was in high school, I was already doing radio programmes. flamenco I worked at a radio station in Escacena, which is a small town next to Paterna, my own. There was a municipal radio station there and I did a programme every afternoon with scripts that I prepared with my classmates from high school. It was a wonderful time. Then I started working at Radio Cadena Española for the Radio Cadena Flamenca project. They sent me to Huelva and it was never inaugurated. I went through all the processes of radio: editor, reporter, announcer, etc. Always alternating it with the studios. In 90, SER signed me for a station in Almonte, then in Huelva, and in 92, before finishing the Expo, I was already here at Radio Sevilla. I have always been involved in management work. I am currently the commercial director of Cadena SER and of Grupo Prisa in Andalusia. And I have always been doing radio programmes. flamenco, whether by intervening or advising.

 

"The flamenco found its place in radio from the beginning. Since the first radio broadcast made in Spain there is flamencoCommercial radio in Spain was inaugurated on Radio Ibérica (Madrid) between 1923 and 1924, and in the first broadcast they made on the air, the artists Rita Ortega and José Ortega, who were dancers, El Niño de las Marianas, Ramón Montoya and many more were heard. Shortly after, Radio Sevilla was inaugurated with La Niña de las Saetas.

 

 

– Come on, his resume is not that of an Iñaki Gabilondo in front of the microphone.

– No, no, no. I have been a management man. From my experience, I know what this business is like from the inside. And being a fan and coming from where I came from, I have always done things in a very professional way. flamenco.

– Ildefonso, can we say with certainty that the radio has treated the country well? flamenco throughout history?

– Yes, I think that flamenco found its place in radio from the beginning. Since the first radio broadcast made in Spain there is flamenco. Commercial radio in Spain was inaugurated on Radio Ibérica (Madrid) between 1923 and 1924 and in the first broadcast they made on the air they already heard the artists who were in the colmado de los Gabrieles. Among them, Rita Ortega and José Ortega, who were dancers, the Niño de las Marianas, Ramón Montoya and many more. Shortly after, Radio Sevilla was inaugurated with La Niña de las Saetas. In the 20s, the saetas were at their peak. There are also flamenco on other radio stations that are being opened. The flamenco It was part of the cultural environment of the capitals and was very present in the great discography that was available, although in the first years of radio the flamenco that was played live. Among other things because electric phonographs were not marketed in Spain until the end of the 20s, almost in the 30s.

– Aside from the beginnings, I wanted to give you a global vision. That is, over the course of a century, has radio behaved well with the flamenco?

– Absolutely yes. Because, as I was saying, the flamenco finds in the radio a natural environment that is sound. There is no other means of communication that can offer so much to the listener. flamenco like radio. It provides sound with the ability to reach. It offers socialization, because there are large audiences who had never heard before. flamenco and they become fans thanks to the radio. It is true that the radio in its early years was a music machine. It offered music and entertainment. Classical music, above all. flamenco was relegated to late nights or weekends, in most cases. And over time it has always been that way. I address in this work the difference between flamenco on the radio and Flemish radio. From 1924 to 1960, there are only flamenco on the radio. That is, musical programmes without specifying where a sequence of recordings or live artists were offered. Miguel Acal was one of the great pioneers in this work, but so was Vicente Marcos in Madrid. Or in Jerez, Juan de la Plata with Manuel Fernández Peña. Or in Granada, Rafael Gomez Montero and Juan Bustos.

– Who was in charge in Seville?

– The one who set the pace in Seville was Antonio Mairena, with the flamenco talk shows on Radio Sevilla. There were Manuel Barrio, Rafael Belmonte, Luis Caballero, Naranjito de Triana, the poet Palomino Vacas, José Núñez de Castro, Sebastián Carvajal… And Matilde Coral, who was also part of that gathering of Thursdays Flamencos. That was a radio program that changed the landscape of radio and flamenco, because there was a change that later spread to all the programs flamenco at the national level. And the flamenco enjoyed enormous popularity.

– Did the two of them live happily together? flamenco with the other music?

– I deal in this book with the flamenco, that is, modern music in the land of flamencoWhy? Because in the mid-60s pop music burst into Spain with such force… The record companies, the multinationals, the market in general began to boil over as a result of the presence of the Beatles in Spain and the number of groups that emerged. And precisely at that moment pop music programs burst in with a beastly force. flamenco. And this is very much reflected in the 70s, 80s and 90s, even still. In this work I provide scientific data, that is, the minutes of the General Media Study of different years, where it can be seen that, for example, the discussion of flamenco, on the day it aired, had more than four times the audience of any normal day at the time of the program. flamenco. All this must be seen in perspective. That is to say, Antonio Mairena projects his aesthetic-cultural canon and his work through radio programs for fourteen years. And that had such an influence that it changed the way we understand the flamenco. That is to say, the aesthetic concept that we have today of flamenco and palos of the flamenco and the flamenco Classical music is thanks to the influence of Antonio Mairena. You only have to see the amount of things they did in their time, when there was no public or private institution to support the flamencoIt was the people of the radio, together with Mairena's work, who projected a way of understanding the flamenco.

 

«The one who set the pace in Seville was Antonio Mairena with the flamenco talk shows on Radio Sevilla. There were Manuel Barrio, Rafael Belmonte, Luis Caballero, Naranjito de Triana, the poet Palomino Vacas, José Núñez de Castro, Sebastián Carvajal… And Matilde Coral. That program changed the panorama of radio and flamenco, because there was a change that later spread to all the programs flamenco at the national level. And the flamenco enjoyed a beastly popularity"

 

 

– I recently interviewed guitarist Rycardo Moreno at the headquarters of Radio Sevilla and photographed the gentleman at the piano in the entrance. I understand that it was the emblematic instrument of radio talk shows.

– That’s right. It was played by José Romero, a music teacher from a high school here in Triana. The talk show had its own autonomy. It was a radio programme, but with such weight that they were the ones who promoted the monument to Pastor Pavón in 1968 in the Alameda. And they paid for it. Antonio Illanes is the sculptor who made it in Madrid, he was paid from what the participants paid him, to the point that Pepe Pinto gave each of them a gold watch.

– Ildefonso, can we say that the flamenco would not have become what it is if it were not for the radio?

– Well, we don't know what it would have been. But what is clear is that what it is is thanks to the push of radio in those years. Because those talk shows had an influence on the rest of the programs that were made throughout Spain, not just here in Andalusia. In many places it was that aesthetic canon that was projected, that way of understanding the flamenco. I remember an interview on Radio Sevilla with the mayor of La Puebla de Cazalla after the first Meeting of Cante Condo. Antonio Mairena says to him: man, mayor, how could you bring a festival flamenco an accordion? No, Antonio, excuse me but it was… Of course, because there was not yet a concept of how festivals flamencoThey should be. They were more or less variety shows where the comedian came in, where this or that person came in. And then the discussions already established that way of understanding the flamenco: that only be sung flamenco and only those palos which they believed were the canonical and the true ones. Keep in mind that on the radio we went from a model of dedicated records of the emigrant or songs by Pepe Pinto or Antonio Molina about seguiriyas, soleares, tonás, debla, media granaína… I have listened to those recordings and they really did a great job of teaching. People called and participated. There was a patio with a hundred seats that was filled every Thursday and emerging artists were eager to go to that program, because it was their boost to later continue with the professionalization of their career.

– There are many people who are attracted to the flamenco, but it is still a minority art. The cante jondo It is inaccessible to many people, without leaving Andalusia. So it was also a minority, even though the Radio Sevilla talk shows were full?

– Well, it is likely that the generation that preceded us had a much greater interest in the flamenco than the current one. We are in this type of concepts, of ways of understanding art, music. Why? Because there was a need and there were few possibilities of reaching the media. flamenco It was a choice. At the time of the greatest international musical movement in this country, which was in the late 60s, early 70s, is when the flamenco with a beastly force. Young people who are looking for modern music, pop, etc., also attend these festivals. flamencoSo I listen to those radio programs. Yes, they had a lot of power. First, because of the difference in the offer. And then, because of the unique identity value that the flamenco. People could listen to the radio, which played a huge role in broadcasting the festivals. flamencos. They could listen to a broadcast Camarón, Lebrijano, Naranjito de Triana, Antonio Mairena, Turronero, Chiquetete, Fernanda and Bernarda, Menese or Calixto Sánchez, who were performing at the Festival of Morón or La Puebla, or Utrera or Mairena, or Lebrija or Conil, or wherever. That was like two or three hours of radio with flamenco fresh. Fans recorded them on those first radio cassette players that were in homes with blank tapes. That was a novelty, not everyone had access to discographies. Being able to access thanks to the radio flamenco Live, that was a gem that only someone who lived through that time can tell you. And that's how I tell it, because it truly was an extraordinary phenomenon.

– I understand that this has been the differentiating element between radio and the press and television. It is no longer like that, is it?

– Today, as all cultural consumption has changed, everything is à la carte, everything is made to measure. There are programs flamenco still on some stations, especially national stations: Canal Sur, Radio Nacional, Radio Olé, which broadcasts Temperance and purity Every Sunday from 22pm to midnight… But you see, at odd hours. It's different, isn't it? He never goes to the prime time, like in that time I'm telling you about the radio.

– Do you feel sorry about that?

– Well, it has changed, but I don't feel sorry for it. Society has changed, consumption has changed and this is still an art of minorities. But those qualified minorities do go looking for that product at those times like anyone else today who has their choice of music. I myself go to the gym and listen to music programs. flamenco I haven't been able to listen to them because they're late at night, so I'll put them on whenever the time comes. On a podcast, of course.

 

«The aesthetic concept that we have today of flamenco and palos of the flamenco and the flamenco Classical music is thanks to the influence of Antonio Mairena. You only have to see the amount of things they did in their time, when there was no public or private institution to support the flamencoIt was the people of the radio, together with Mairena's work, who projected a way of understanding the flamenco»

 

 

– At the time we are talking about, the 60s and 70s, the only springboard was the radio waves. Nowadays there are a lot of platforms for an artist to make himself known to his audience and get thirty gigs in the summer. But back then, if he wasn’t on the radio, he didn’t exist, right?

– Indeed, that's right. And I also had to sing those cantes that were the precepts of the time. Watch the recordings of the artists flamencos from the late 60s and 70s, and even the 80s, and look at their repertoires. They are canonical repertoires, classics. Soleares, seguiriyas, tientos, granaínas, fandangos, bulerías, I don't know what, I don't know how much... Some the alegrías, others the peteneras, others the medias granaína, others the malagueñas, etc., etc., but don't take them from there. Some the caña, others the martinete, but none of them are going to sing you, for example, the vidalita or the...

– You were telling me before that at a certain point you go from flamenco on the radio to flamenco radio. In other words, it exists. Flamenco radio has existed.

– Yes. Just like they talk about football today, then they talked about cante, of interpreters, of artists, of palos, from the history of flamenco. And that was driven by Antonio Mairena, without a doubt. This led to a thematic radio station in Seville in the 80s, managed by the public entity at the time, which was Radio Cadena Española. Today it is Radio 5, of Radio Nacional de España. There, a thematic radio station was created called Radio Cadena Flamenca, which broadcast from 7 in the morning to 2 in the afternoon. Its content lasted until the 80s. And then Canal Sur took over, with always excellent production. And twenty-five years later, in 2009, flamencoradio.com, which is 24 hours a day, with a very radio-like format, with lots of live broadcasts. It is also a gem that is within everyone's reach. And private companies, like Radiolé. Tere has been there Peña more than 25 years. And then Velázquez-Gaztelu on Radio Clásica, Teo Sánchez on Radio 3… Great professionals.

– Did the radio audience really demand flamencoCan we say that the flamenco on the radio was commercial? Was there life beyond the Beatles and the Brincos?

– Well, not at that level, obviously, because the flamencoThey don't go to large crowds. Although here in Andalusia there was a time when any festival would bring 3.000 people in front of the stage. There were box office singers who drew crowds, like Camarón, El Cabrero, Calixto or Lebrijano. At that time it was commercially profitable even for radio stations. Big brands of the time, I contribute it in the book, like Ecorup, which was the first hypermarket that opened here in Seville, which was there in Camas, sponsored the programs of flamenco of the time, also the live festivals. Vilima, a store that was in the center, in Puente y Pellón, was also another of the big sponsors. When the time of the summer festivals came, they advertised their beach items, whatever. I provide recordings of all this in the book. Cruzcampo, Estrella del Sur, the big brands of the city were present in those programs. In fact, the prestigious Compás del Sur award Cante, from Cruzcampo, came from the programs that Emilio Jiménez Díaz made on Radio Popular. Emilio was another of the greats of radio. He worked at El Corte Inglés, but he had an extraordinary aesthetic conception. He was a scholar, an intellectual, a poet. The big chains have not continued making programs of flamenco.

– If I were to choose a mythical snapshot of the flamenco On the radio, I suppose it would be from those talk shows, right?

– The tertulias were the turning point. Because it was not just a radio program. It was their contribution to this art. The dignification of flamenco, the dignity of artists, the salary of artists. They even created a collective agreement with Social Security so that artists of the time had a card, medical access and so on. They made the monument to PastoraIt was not a monument to a famous singer. It was the first monument to be made to an artist. flamenco, possibly the greatest singer of all time. And it takes place in Seville. That inauguration was on the cover of ABC, the program came you guys are awesome, it was a national event. And Antonio Mairena was there with Juan Talega, with Pepe Pinto, because Pastora She was very ill at that time. The projection that Antonio Mairena had made through the radio materialized in a monument. They also brought the flamenco to the university. They were not the first, but they did. Antonio Mairena himself gave a lecture that was the first CD of the collection that Rafael Infante made in the Chair of Flamenco from the University of Seville. It was another metaphor: an illiterate gypsy had given a lecture, had projected the flamenco, had taken him to college. And so we communicated it.

– When we were walking along Altozano from Fabié Street, where they have just inaugurated Curro Fernández's tile work, he was telling me that it is possible to recover the sound archive of those legendary radio programs. For example, Miguel Acal's. He even mentioned me. The goblin and the tarab, Radio Aljarafe. So, that is somewhere, even if it is not in a Flemish documentation centre, which is where it should be.

– There is no audio archive. I had access to those programs through a fan from La Rinconada who in the 80s and 90s had recorded all the programs of flamenco that there was. All this in a room bigger than this cafeteria, filled with shelves from floor to ceiling with cassette tapes. I recorded everything. That's where I found The goblin and the tarab, even some programmes that I made when I arrived in 92 at Radio Sevilla. A gem. And that is practically out of circulation. It will be lost. Since the stations do not have a music library, we are in the hands of amateurs… Look, when I start to investigate I remember that I read a book by Humberto Eco and another self-help book to know how to focus a scientific investigation within the framework of a doctoral thesis. There is no title that tells you that you are a researcher and that's it, but that this is a profession that must be developed. You learn by researching. And how do you do it? Well, by getting your hands on it. That's what I did: ask and ask. For example, the sound archives that I offer from Radiocadena Española came to me from the United States, because there was an amateur who came here every year to Seville and learned to play the guitar in Morón with Diego del Gastór. In the 80s he recorded all the hours of Radiocadena Española while he was here in Seville. Thanks to WeTransfer, with the current tools, he has been able to transfer all those files to me. And I discovered this thanks to an article he published in a magazine. flamenco that was in the United States.

 

«There is no title that tells you that you are a researcher and that's it, but that this is a profession that must be developed. You learn by researching. And how do you do it? Well, by getting your hands on it. That's what I did: ask and ask. For example, the sound archives that I offer from Radiocadena Española came to me from the United States, because there was an amateur who came here every year and in the 80s recorded all the hours of flamenco on that station"

 

 

- Definitely, One hundred years of flamenco and radio It is a book of Flemish research.

– Totally. It's not something we have, where you go on the Internet and start downloading files. My doctoral thesis was called Historiographic analysis and documentary sources of the flamenco and the radio. I contribute what I have found. That is, all my work is available to future researchers, because there was nothing in that field. That may be the uniqueness of this work, that it is a work that did not exist and was not collected. The book offers a large number of photographs, documentation, QR codes. It is a sound book. It is a very extensive book, more than a thousand pages, where I deal with the flamenco radio not only here in Seville, but in Extremadura, in Catalonia, in Ciudad Real, in Albacete, in Valencia, in the Basque Country, in Galicia, in Zamora... There were programs there flamenco narrated as much as here. And in all of Andalusia: Jaén, Almería, Cádiz… Cádiz is exceptional, because there are like three provinces in one.

– Where can I get the book?

– Well, it was published by Editorial Universidad de Sevilla and it is available on all platforms and in many specialized bookstores. And I am told that they are going to have to republish more books, because it has been so well received.

– Also online, on the University of Seville website?

– No, online does not exist yet. It will be an option for the future. And there are some corrections that can be made, which will always be useful. Or different contributions.

– What is your greatest satisfaction when writing this book? You have been working on it practically your whole life.

– Well, to contribute something, some information, in the field of research, from the academic field, different, distinct and necessary. Because it didn’t exist.

– Why is there so little flamenco Now on the radio such untimely hours?

– Because cultural consumption has changed, as I was saying. This is still an art of minorities. And it is true that we have been swallowed up by the world… Everything there is. Simply because it has its public, and the public of the flamenco has changed. It is not like the 70s and 80s. Nor are there the number of artists that there were in the 80s. Today there is not that level of creativity and that capacity that there was at that time from so many top-notch people. Paco de Lucía and Manolo Sanlúcar, two of the great geniuses, coincide in time. And that may not happen again in history. Or maybe it will, we do not know, but for now that is how it is. Now there are no programs of flamenco as they were back then. They broadcast them at odd hours and on podcast platforms, which is where there is plenty of supply.

 

«Cultural consumption has changed. This is still an art of minorities. And it is true that we have been swallowed up by the world. There are not the same number of artists as there were in the 80s. Paco de Lucía and Manolo Sanlúcar, two of the great geniuses, coincide in time. And that may not happen again in history.»

 

– Have you ever noticed, in that sense, that the flamenco Not only does it not interest many people in Andalusia and Spain in the slightest, but sometimes it even causes rejection when hearing it on the radio or in the media?

– Yes, yes, yes. I have felt it. I remember a conversation with a man who had a nephew who was a veterinarian and was doing a doctoral thesis. And then another man who was with me having coffee said to him: well, look, Ildefonso has finished a doctoral thesis. And about what? And I, about the flamenco. Well, but that has nothing to do with a doctoral thesis... They are the same academic, scientific processes! That is, my doctoral thesis, which obtained the cum laude, that there were five or six people on a tribunal who were highly qualified to assess the work, a scientific research work that is endorsed by the University of Seville and after many years of work, regardless of the subject matter, does not have to be less than a thesis in another area of ​​knowledge, right? We are within the social sciences. Of course we are. Just as there is a master's degree, at the same level as any other, of which I am lucky to be part of the group of teachers, like any other offer in mathematics, chemistry or medicine. I am referring to the one from the University of Cadiz.

– Have they taken a dislike to him? Do they associate him with Francoism? Do they find him inaccessible?

– It is due to ignorance. And because of the stereotype that will always haunt us. Just like Andalusians have the stereotype that we are funny and that we make jokes and that our speech is I don't know what, and still in movies, in series, for the maid or for the lazy person they use the stereotype of the Andalusian. Unfortunately, the flamenco has been marked within this stigma. In any case, someone who thinks like this is a person with few cultural elements when it comes to evaluating any option. Because a cultured person in all its sense knows that flamenco It is one of the most beautiful and different expressions that we have in the world of music and art in general. ♦